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Why is it that the difference, in particular that between logical and phenomenal possibility, is of philosophical relevance? First, it is interesting to note how it is precisely those states of affairs and worlds just characterized as phenomenally possible which appear as intuitively plausible to us: We can define intuitive plausibility as a property of every thought or idea which we can successfully transform into the content of a coherent phenomenal simulation. In doing so, the internal coherence of a conscious simulation may vary greatly. The result of a certain thought experiment, say, of Swampman traveling to Inverted Earth (Tye 1998) may intuitively appear as plausible to us, whereas a dream, in retrospect, may look bizarre. Of course, the reverse is possible as well. Again, it is true that phenomenal possibility is always relative to a certain class of concrete representational systems and that the mechanisms of generating and evaluating coherence employed by those systems may have been optimized toward functional adequacy and not subject to any criteria of epistemic justification in the classic epistemological sense of the word.31 In passing, let me briefly point to a second, more general issue, which has generated considerable confusion in many current debates in philosophy of mind. Of course, from phenomenal possibility (or necessity), neither nomological nor logical possibility (or necessity) will follow. The statement that all of us are purportedly able to coherently conceive of or imagine a certain situation—for instance, an imitation man (K. K. Campbell 1971, p. 120) or a zombie (see Chalmers 1996, p. 94ff.)—is rather trivial from a philosophical point of view because ultimately it is just an empirical claim about the history of the human brain and its functional architecture. It is a statement about a world that is a phenomenally possible world for human beings. It is not a statement about the modal strength of the relationship between physical and phenomenal properties; logical possibility (or necessity) is not implied by phenomenal possibility (or necessity). From the simple fact that beings like ourselves are able to phenomenally simulate a certain apparently possible world, it does not follow that a consistent or even only an empirically plausible description of this world exists. On the contrary, the fact that such descriptions can be generated today shows how devoid of empirical content our current concept of consciousness still is (P. M. Churchland 1996). 20 мая 2021
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А вообще мне нраица то, куда со временем пришёл этот старый поиск решения, гм, самобытности человеческого разума; в то время как одни ребята
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Where's my popcorn, graymalkin? _ Это я отчасти к тому, что концепция с отсутствием «я» может вызывать вопросы, но вместо того, чтобы читать критические статьи для этого, опять же, стоит читать М… поэтому я просто вкину чужую цитату, без особой уверенности. But in Plato’s myth, the point is that one of the captives eventually escapes. And this is where Metzinger differs from Plato: ‘I claim that there is no one in the cave. There is no one who could leave… I claim that the conscious self is not a thing, but a shaded surface. It is not an individual object, but a process: the ongoing process of shading’. (549) Or as he puts it at least twice in the book: ‘The cave is empty’. (551) Yet there are some ambiguities in Metzinger’s claims about the myth. For one thing, it is not quite relevant whether the cave is empty. After all, we are willing to concede his point that everything that appears in consciousness is a flickering shadow, and we would never expect a shadow to escape the shadowy realm. The point is not whether the cave is empty (we conceded this point long ago) but whether anyone is watching the wall. And in Metzinger’s model, what seems to be watching the wall is the cave itself, the same cave that we heard him define as follows: ‘What is the cave? The cave, according to [the self-model theory] is simply the physical organism as a whole, including, in particular, its brain’. (548) But this ‘physical organism as a whole’ is not merely a collection of parts; it is a whole, after all. And it is this whole that we can call a self. This self observes the wall of the cave, mistaking itself for the shadow of itself that it sees there, and mistaking objects for the shadow of objects it sees there. But this does not entail that it does not exist. If the self cannot escape the cave, this is not because there is no self that could escape, but because the very nature of perception entails that it must occur in a cave: to encounter anything, including ourselves, can only mean to simulate it, not to witness it directly. Why does Metzinger fail to see this? Because his hardheaded reductionism does not allow him to grasp that even if the self is causally generated by the physical-organism-as-a-whole, this does not mean that it is nothing but a group of disconnected nerves and cells. The entire ‘ominous’ dimension of Metzinger’s book, which has made it so especially appealing to nihilistic younger males who enjoy breaking things into pieces, is therefore based not on some devastating insight into a scary ‘nemocentric’ world where selves do not exist, but on a simple a priori dogma that if something has causal antecedents, then only those antecedents can have independent reality. But this is simply a familiar and platitudinous form of materialism applied to neurophysics, not a philosophical insight with any sort of pathbreaking rigor. When on the final page of the book Metzinger says that ‘there is no one whose illusion the conscious self could be, no one who is confusing herself with anything’ (634), this is a mere bit of melodrama as the curtain falls, with half of the audience frightened by the man in the Jack-o’-lantern mask, and the other half wanting to be just like him. Вот этот кусочек описывает моё пред-ознакомительное беспокойство. Потому что а) многое звучит в очень классическом ключе, далёком от того прорыва, что обещает шум вокруг, б) есть спорные нюансы, в которых, кажется, М. не уходит далеко от «цинично-сциентистской» позиции, — а я думаю, что наиболее интересным в этом поле будет не тот, кто станет утверждать отсутствие и разделять (мы, наверное, по большему счёту эти примеры в данном вопросе уже видели и обоюдную критику слышали), а тот, кто приведёт позиции к своеобразному синтезу. |
Бегло прочитал половину и сломался. Философия и на русском часто похожа на толчение дискурса в дискурсе, но на другом языке это становится еще очевиднее.
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Заяц
Процессуальные модели (как там бишь её, phenomenal self-model) по Метцингеру. |
Zveird
Ну в принципе твоя цитата это длинное "ха, на самом деле нет". Я за редукционизм пока это удобно, и то самое приятное для "younger males" направление с редукционизм ом сознания кажется очень интуитивно логичным методом для понимания этой системы. Я не говорю что прям "все сознание в труху", просто нужно придерживаться уровня редукционизма который эмпирически удобен. Сумма частей лол, ну это уже про мереологические идеи, типа функция по которой эти части суммируется и есть недостающее звено. |
Новые люди, новые интуиции, новые хорошие примеры к которым можно привязать термины.
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Чeрт
пока это удобно нужно придерживаться уровня редукционизма который эмпирически удобен Удобно для чего?Сумма частей лол, ну это уже про мереологические идеи, типа функция по которой эти части суммируется и есть недостающее звено. Why not? |