 #история #из_комментов #странные_списки
ИМХО, нам нужно вообще точнее определить содержание понятия Honour, "Честь". If the estate-in-land held by barony contained a significant castle as its caput baroniae and if it was especially large – consisting of more than about 20 knight's fees (each loosely equivalent to a manor) – then it was termed an honour. The typical honour had properties scattered over several shires, intermingled with the properties of others. This was a specific policy of the Norman kings, to avoid establishing any one area under the control of a single lord. Usually, though, a more concentrated cluster existed somewhere. Here would lie the caput (head) of the honour, with a castle that gave its name to the honour and served as its administrative headquarters. The term honour is particularly useful for the eleventh and twelfth centuries, before the development of an extensive peerage hierarchy. Honour of Arundelhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_feudal_barony Honour of Richmond (Honour of Brittany) Honour of Tickhill (Honour of Blythe) Honour of Tutbury Honour of Peverel Honour of Hastings Honour of Chester Honour of Huntingdon Honour of Penrith Honour of Gloucester (частично в Нормандии) Honour of Sheffield Honour of Lewes Honour of Bramber Honour of Pevensey Honour of Pickering Honour of Mulgrave Honour of Mortain (частично в Нормандии) Honour of Boulogne (в основном в Нормандии) Honour of Clare Honour of Pontefract Honour of Skipton Honour of Mowbray Honour of Conisborough Honour of Warenne (частично в Нормандии) Honour of Briqueville (в Нормандии) Honour of Bellencombre (в Нормандии) Honour of Bradninch Honour of Berry Pommeraie Honour of Harberton Honour of Totenais (Honour of Totnes) Honour of Barnstaple Honour of Eye (Honour of Eia) Honour of Rayleigh Honour of Saint Valery Honour of Saint-Sauveur Honour of Ewelme (XV век!) Honour of Berkhamsted Honour of Wallingford Honour of Carisbrooke Honour of Copeland Honour of Egremont Honour of Mandeville Honour of Grafton (XVI век!) Honour of Aumale Honour of Papcastle Honour of Abergavenny Honour of Château-du-Loir (пожалована графом? Какие-то анжуйские дела) Honour of Hagenet (Honour of Haughley) Honour of Braose (в Нормандии) Honour of Cockermouth Honour of Brecon Honour of Bolingbroke Honour of Hinckley Honour of Lancaster Honour of Clitheroe Honour of Stoke Curcy Honour of Harberton Honour of Bradnesse Honour of Plympton Honour of Moreton Honour of Devon Honour of Lifton Honour of Tikebull Honour of Saint Hilary Honour of Chepstow (Honour of Striguil) Honour of Dunstor Honour of Breteuil (в Нормандии) Honour of Petworth Honour of Eustace Honour of Angre Honour of Eagle (Honour of Aquila) Honour of Tosny (в Нормандии) Honour of Spiney Honour of Kington Honour of Belvoir Honour of Brai (в Нормандии) Honour of Gournay (частично в Нормандии) Honour of Longueville-la-Giffart (в Нормандии) https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/1870/1/DX182025.pdf 9 июля 2023
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Вот видите. Территории, довольно обширные, но без титула. Потом они стали графствами и герцогствами - когда их держателей пожаловали соответствующими титулами.
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Lady Astrel, так или иначе, меня всё равно интересует вопрос ранжировки баронов, старшие и младшие, или вот держатели "честей"...
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Lady Astrel, а имел в виду я ситуации вроде таких:
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The "Earl of Clare" was probably not a medieval title. Some contemporary sources called them "Earls of Clare", but many modern historians treat this as if it were a "styled" (self-assumed) title. There was no standardised method of reference to earls in the late eleventh and twelfth centuries, and the Clares were one of a handful referred to as earls in this period without a county mentioned. For example, Gerald of Wales recounts an incident relating to the Earl of Clare, possibly referring to William Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester. Such references led some older historians to assume the Earls of Gloucester and Hertford also carried the title Earls of Clare. The title, for instance, is given in the original Dictionary of National Biography. The confusion probably stems from misinterpretation of references, such as that of "Earl Gilbert de Clare", in which Clare was taken as a title rather than a surname. One view is there was no such title in existence, and that the first creation of the title Earl of Clare dates to 1624. However, John Burke in 1831 states that prior to the 1624 creation, Robert Rich, Earl of Warwick, was to be created Earl of Clare, but that it was refused by the crown lawyers, "on a solemn declaration, that it was a title peculiar to the royal blood and not to be conferred upon a subject." |
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К тому же эти "чести" сами были устойчивыми образованиями, почти титулами. Например, когда Варенны получили Honour of Conisborough, она не вошла в состав их собственной Honour of Warenne, а была отдельно.
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Три рубля
К тому же эти "чести" сами были устойчивыми образованиями, почти титулами. Ну да, определённые территории, но изначально никакой особый титул к ним не прикладывался. И, разумеется, владения не сливались. Собственно говоря, само слово honour в обсуждаемом значении использовалось тогда, когда ещё не сложилась иерархия пэров. Причём земли, входившие в honour, располагались не единым куском. |
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Забавно: слово fee Гугл переводит как гонорар, но слово honour, которое явно со словом гонорар связано гораздо теснее, он переводит как честь.
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