Desmоnd

*орёт*

Тощий Бетон_вторая итерация
Ну, понятно, инструкции были типа "у нас цилиндр такой-то, стенки такойто толщины", "тут повёрнуто на 15 градусов", "пазы такой-то толщины и глубины". Вполне оказалась рабочая система, а итерации уже просто изменением переменных.

Desmоnd
Ну ты понимаешь, про что я. Раз нейронка, значит результат априори гумно)

Виктор Некрам
Нууу, звучит хотя и логично, но в тот момент я не вижу такого ахуя, чтоб он буквально не мог воспринимать реальность. Такой у него был сразу после возвращения с кладбища, да. А тут он, несмотря на все, вполне в себе и вполне воспринимает окружающую реальность:
Даже если это не фокал Гарри, а авторский текст, и половину происходящего он не замечает, все равно Гарри проявляет достаточно интереса к окружающему и находится в ясном сознании.

кукурузник
Нет, он именно их этому учил:

Да и если б Крауч просто так по приколу империл учеников, а не в учебных целях, он бы даже у волшебников не удержался на должности профессора и загремел (обратно) в Азкабан.

Desmоnd
А, все, поняла! Гарри не может убить никто, кроме Волдеморта, а до 17 лет и Волдеморт тоже.

Кстати. А чем Дамблдор был доволен, когда узнал, что у Волдеморта теперь есть кровь Гарри?


Desmоnd
Да, про Крауча и Грюма все логично получается.
В принципе, если б Грюм и сбросил Империус, куда б он делся. И можно заимперить снова, спросить что нужно - пары минут хватит.

О__о
А смысл....

Samus2001
Или они знают, что будет с теми, кто идёт против Альбуса. Точнее, НЕ знают — все противники Дамбигада умирают: смерть абсолютно естественная, у Альбуса всякий раз стопроцентное алиби — он в этот момент ел дольки на обеде в Большом зале или допрашивал кого-то на заседании Визенгамота, ни Приори Инкантатем, ни что-либо ещё не покажет вообще никакого криминала. Или, скажем, криминал есть — и все улики будут указывать на Пожирателей, герои пали смертью храбрых, Дамблдор ещё и прочувственную речь на похоронах скажет. Или вообще: был противник Дамбигада, и нет его — то ли неудачно аппарировал и расщепился на атомы, то ли портключом по ошибке вместо Венеции перенёсся на Венеру, то ли экспериментировал с маховиком времени и случайно укатил в средние века, да так там и остался… А ещё ходят слухи, что гений трансфигурации Дамбигад превращает особо неугодных лиц и все улики против себя в лимонные дольки…

Ну вот правда, раз в дамбигадских фанфиках все типа герои сплошь меркантильные и каждый сам за себя, почему никто из них ни капли не боится Дамбигада?

Приходит Глаша к Краучам со своими подозрениями касательно директора и планами против него, а Крауч-старший такой: «Тс-с-с, внученька, предыдущий Министр вон тоже задавал лишние вопросы, теперь вот в вазочке лежит…» И младший Барти поддакивает: «А у нас были несколько молодых дураков, пытались напасть на Дамблдора. Потом только один из них нашёлся — он пытался приятелей отговорить от нападения, и Дамблдор его пощадил: всего лишь наложил сильный Обливиэйт. Парень моего возраста, а мог после этого только агукать. Мы его подлечили как смогли, теперь хотя бы умеет говорить с горем пополам. Он в зоомагазине Косого переулка работает теперь, клетки чистит».

Круги на воде
В седьмой книге ответ:

Слушала тут аудиоверсию ролика Клима Жукова про Валленштайна, зацепилась за имя "отец Жозеф". Стала вспоминать, где оно мне недавно попадалось: оказалось, в нынешнем впроцесснике РавиШанкаР.


Чего только в фанфиках по Поттериане не бывает...

Круги на воде
Эээээ, учиться. Экзамены и контрольные проверка изученного на момент, но учеба на этом не прекратилась и программа никуда не делась.

И вдруг я подумала знаете ЧО?
А ведь делать Люциуса "сиятельным Лордом" значит обсирать его.
Если он обычный "мистер", выходит, что он таки что-то делал: репутацию отбеливал, нужным людям на лапу давал, запрещенку сбывал - крутился, в общем, как мог. И можно не принимать его взгляды, но он становится интересным персонажем, который что-то делает и иногда у него получается.
А если он Лорд, да еще и сиятельный... Получается уже не "деньги предков плюс свое умение вертеться", а "деньги предков плюс имя, которое прославил не он". И пока мистер Малфой интригует, подсиживает и выкручивается, сиятельный Лорд Малфой просто существует, и типа это основание ему в ножки кланяться.

Гексаниэль

Ну так для фанов всяких Лордов и Леди не существует фактического труда и его итога. Есть лишь главный стимул жизни - выебоны. Повыебываться наследуемым богатством, повыебываться чистой кровью, повыебываться РоДоМаГиЕй, повыебываться и ещё раз повыебываться. Однако за данным никакой хотя бы мало-мальски практичной сути или реальной статусности нет.

Гексаниэль
Я давно говорил, что лютый хейтер не сможет так обосрать персонажа, как няшкающий автор.
Самое выпуклое - Снейп. У разных завязочек он выходит запредельно жалким и ничтожным. А весь рододроч (кроме редких случаев, которые мне не встречались - допускаю в теории) - превращение в вырожденцев типа Гонтов но на максималках. Особенно смешно, как все эти рода нагнул в одну бороду Домбегад (который почему-то во всех таких фиках выглядит воплощением добра, противостоящим настоящим уродам). И только когда появляется авторская сьюха, ДДД теряет любую возможность действовать из-за ВРАЖ по самые гланды.

Desmоnd
#нейрослоп

The feudal contract was, in theory and often in practice, reciprocal. The serf owed the lord labor, loyalty, and military service. But the lord owed the serf protection, justice, and subsistence. The lord who failed in these duties could be — and was — challenged, resisted, and overthrown. The relationship was unequal, yes. But it was a relationship, with obligations flowing in both directions.
The medieval legal tradition was saturated with this principle. The Mirrors of Princes genre — instructional texts written for kings and lords — insisted endlessly that the ruler's authority was conditional on his fulfillment of duty. The lord who ruled tyrannically forfeited his right to obedience. The Church taught that the powerful would face stricter divine judgment than the humble. The Magna Carta was, in essence, the barons telling King John: you have obligations, and we will enforce them.
Now look at what fanfiction builds.
The "Lord of the Ancient and Noble House of Potter" in a typical fanfic commands the obedience of vassals through magically binding oaths. The vassal swears fealty, and the oath is literal — break it and you die, or your magic is stripped, or you are physically compelled to obey. But what does the lord owe in return? In most fics, nothing. Or rather, nothing enforceable. The lord's "duty to protect" is a vague sentiment, not a magically binding counter-oath. The vassal is chained. The lord is free.
Real feudalism had a word for the lord who took without giving: tyrant. And the entire medieval political tradition was organized around the question of what to do about tyrants. Fanfiction feudalism has no such tradition, because the magical oath makes the question unanswerable. You cannot resist a lord whose authority is enforced by your own blood. You cannot appeal to custom, because the custom is the blood oath. You cannot appeal to God, because there is no God in the Wizarding World. You cannot appeal to the king, because the king is bound by the same system.
The medieval serf, for all his suffering, lived within a moral universe that recognized his humanity and his rights — however imperfectly those rights were honored. The fanfiction vassal lives in a universe where his subordination is a law of nature, as immutable as gravity.

Medieval feudalism was embedded in Christendom — a comprehensive moral and metaphysical system that insisted, however hypocritically, on certain truths:
All souls are equal before God
The powerful bear greater responsibility
The lord will be judged for his treatment of the weak
There is a natural law that no human authority can override
The humble will be exalted in the Kingdom of Heaven
These beliefs were often violated. They were never officially denied. Even the most tyrannical medieval king paid lip service to them. They provided a vocabulary of resistance — the peasant revolt could appeal to divine justice, the rebellious baron could appeal to natural law, the reforming monk could appeal to the Gospel.
The Wizarding World has none of this. There is no established religion. There is no divine judgment. There is no natural law tradition. There is no afterlife in which the humble will be exalted (the Resurrection Stone brings back shades, not souls; the Deathly Hallows are about accepting death, not transcending it).
So when a fanfiction writer builds a feudal hierarchy in this world, there is no moral framework to constrain it. The hierarchy exists purely as power. The strong rule because they are strong. The bloodline determines status because the bloodline is status. There is no God to appeal to, no natural law to invoke, no divine justice to await.
This makes fanfiction feudalism more nihilistic than the real thing. The medieval serf could say: "My lord is unjust, but God sees, and God will judge." The fanfiction vassal can say nothing. There is no higher court. The blood oath is the final word.

Medieval feudalism was not static. It was a living, contested, constantly renegotiated system. Customs evolved. Rights were won through struggle. The Magna Carta, the Parliament, the communes, the guilds, the universities — all emerged from centuries of negotiation between lords and those beneath them. The serf of 1300 lived under very different conditions than the serf of 1000. The system changed because the people within it pushed.
Fanfiction magical contracts do not change. A blood oath sworn a thousand years ago is as binding today as the moment it was spoken. A magical contract signed by an ancestor constrains all descendants forever. There is no statute of limitations on a magical vow. There is no parliamentary reform of a bloodline enchantment. The system is eternal and immutable — frozen in the moment of its creation.
This is, again, not feudalism. Feudalism was a human system, and human systems evolve. What fanfiction builds is closer to a magical caste system — a biological determinism enforced by supernatural means, with no mechanism for reform, no possibility of evolution, no space for the slow, painful, imperfect progress that characterized real medieval social change.
The medieval serf's grandson might be a freeman. The fanfiction vassal's thousandth-generation descendant is still a vassal, because the blood oath is eternal and the bloodline is fixed.

At its best — and it was often at its best, in the small-scale, face-to-face world of the medieval manor — feudalism was a personal relationship. The lord knew his tenants. The tenants knew the lord. The relationship was mediated by custom, by personal loyalty, by the memory of past kindnesses and grievances. It was human. A good lord was remembered with affection. A bad lord was remembered with hatred. The relationship had texture.
Fanfiction feudalism replaces this with mechanism. The oath compels. The contract enforces. The bloodline determines. There is no need for the lord to be good, because the vassal's obedience is guaranteed by magic, not by loyalty. There is no need for the vassal to be faithful, because the contract punishes infidelity automatically. The human relationship is replaced by a magical feedback loop.
This is the difference between a marriage and a leash. A medieval lord who ruled well earned the genuine loyalty of his people. A fanfiction lord does not need to earn anything. The blood oath does the work. The result is a system that produces obedience without loyalty, service without love, hierarchy without meaning.
And this is, I think, why fanfiction feudalism feels so much more unpleasant than the real thing, even though the real thing involved actual famine, plague, and violence. The medieval serf suffered within a human relationship. The fanfiction vassal suffers within a mechanism. And there is something uniquely dehumanizing about being ground down not by a person, however cruel, but by a system that operates with the indifference of a law of physics.

прдлж: A real feudal lord was, before anything else, an administrator. He sat in judgment over disputes between tenants. He maintained the roads, the bridges, the mill, the church. He organized the harvest. He stored grain against famine. He raised the levy when the king called. He settled the boundary dispute between the smith and the tanner. He listened to the widow's complaint about her neighbor's goats.
This was work. Dull, grinding, unglamorous work. The vast majority of a medieval lord's life was not spent in tournament and banquet. It was spent in accounting, arbitration, and infrastructure maintenance. The lord who neglected these duties lost his tenants, his income, and eventually his head.
Now look at a fanfiction "Lord Potter."
He inherits the title. He inherits the manor. He inherits the vault. He inherits the house-elves. And then he... attends a ball. He makes a speech. He glares at Malfoy across the Great Hall. He discovers a secret room in the ancestral home. He learns a powerful family spell. He is recognized and deferred to and feared.
But he never once sits in judgment over a tenant dispute. He never once worries about the harvest. He never once has to decide whether to spend the family gold on repairing the east wall or feeding the village through winter. The administrative reality of power — the part that makes power real rather than decorative — is entirely absent.
The fanfiction lord is not a governor. He is a celebrity with a title. His power is purely performative — it exists to be displayed, not to be exercised. The manor is not a functioning estate; it is a set. The title is not a political office; it is a costume accessory. The vassals are not people he is responsible for; they are an audience for his magnificence.
This is feudalism as lifestyle brand. The aesthetic of hierarchy without the labor of hierarchy. The deference without the duty. The throne without the tax collection.
And the magical oaths and blood contracts are the mechanism by which this substitution is accomplished. In real feudalism, the vassal's obedience was conditional on the lord's performance of his duties. If the lord failed, the vassal could — and did — withhold service, appeal to a higher lord, or simply leave. The blood oath eliminates this conditionality. The vassal obeys regardless. The lord can neglect every duty, abuse every privilege, govern not at all — and the vassal is still bound. The oath converts a relationship into a mechanism, and in doing so, it frees the lord from the one thing that made feudalism a system rather than a fantasy: accountability.

Тощий Бетон_вторая итерация

Очень хорошо и любопытно высказано
Мать-магия как замена христианского бога, кстати, страдает тем же: божьи кары так и не обрушились, зато мамамагея следит за каждым чихом и действует

Samus2001

Причём вовсе не по принципам высшей справедливости

Тощий Бетон_вторая итерация

Обязан ли бог им следовать, когда он превыше всех? С другой стороны, когда ты ссышь на муравейник, тебе как то плевать на отдельного муравья.
Мама магея в этом разрезе практики личных кар, выходит ближе к греческим и скандинавским богам, не христианскому, что могло бы стать отличной основой противостояния маги - церковь и обоснуя всякому язычеству с еблей на алтарях, развешиванию кишок на дереве и прочему

Samus2001
Вообще к языческим. Отношения чисто транзакционные)

Вот добросил этот тезис:
The distinction between the Christian God and the gods of pagan pantheons is not merely theological. It is political. These two models of divinity produce radically different models of hierarchy, obligation, and power.
The Christian God:
Is transcendent — He stands outside and above the created order. He is not part of the system. He is not the system. He made the system, and He can unmake it.
Is moral — He is the source of moral law. He does not merely enforce order; He enforces justice. And His justice is not the justice of the strong. "He has put down the mighty from their thrones and exalted the lowly." (Luke 1:52)
Is universal — He applies equally to king and serf, lord and vassal, pure-blood and Muggle-born. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female." (Galatians 3:28)
Is personal — He relates to each individual soul. He knows the sparrow that falls. He counts the hairs on your head. The least vassal is as visible to Him as the greatest lord.
Judges the powerful more strictly — "To whom much is given, much will be required." (Luke 12:48) The lord who abuses his vassals faces harsher judgment than the vassal who merely suffers.
Sides with the weak — "Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." (Luke 6:24) "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did for me." (Matthew 25:40)
Demands interior transformation — not merely external compliance. He does not care if you keep the oath. He cares if you love your neighbor. The ritual without the heart is "whitewashed tombs." (Matthew 23:27)
Forgives — the oath-breaker can repent. The sinner can be redeemed. The hierarchy can be dismantled by grace.

The gods of pagan pantheons (Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, etc.):
Are immanent — they are embedded in the natural order. They are part of the cosmos. They are subject to its laws. Even Zeus is subject to Fate. Even Odin is bound by the runes he discovered. The gods do not stand above the system; they are the system, or at least its most powerful components.
Are amoral or pre-moral — they enforce order, not justice. Zeus punishes oath-breakers not because oath-breaking is morally wrong but because it disrupts cosmic order. Athena favors Athens not because Athens is just but because Athens is hers. The gods do not ask whether the hierarchy is fair. They ask whether it is maintained.
Are partisan — they favor their own people, their own cities, their own bloodlines, their own chosen heroes. They do not apply equally to all. The god of the tribe is not the god of the stranger.
Are transactional — you give sacrifice, they give favor. You perform the ritual, they grant the blessing. You break the oath, they exact the penalty. It is a contract, not a covenant. There is no grace. There is no mercy. There is no forgiveness. You get what you paid for, and you pay for what you get.
Do not judge the powerful by higher moral standards — Zeus rapes, deceives, and tyrannizes, and faces no judgment. Odin manipulates, betrays, and hoards knowledge, and is called wise. The gods are above moral judgment because they are the source of the order, not its subjects.
Demand external compliance — ritual correctness, sacrificial adequacy, oath-keeping. They do not care about your heart. They care about your performance. The ritual done correctly works, regardless of the moral character of the performer.
Are genealogical — they are ancestors, progenitors, parents. The king rules by divine blood, not by divine moral appointment. The relationship between god and worshipper is familial, not ethical. The god favors his children because they are his, not because they are good.
Now. Hold these two models in mind. And ask yourself: which one does the fanfiction pseudo-feudal system require?

Most fanfiction writers are probably secular, or nominally Christian, or vaguely spiritual. They are not consciously reinventing paganism. They are not sitting down and saying: "I shall now construct a pagan theological framework to undergird my pseudo-feudal narrative."
But the structural logic of the system they are building compels them toward paganism. Every choice they make — the blood oath, the magical contract, the Lord ring, the ancestral magic, the ranked cores, the house-elf, the betrothal agreement — requires a specific kind of divine authority to sustain it. And that authority can only be pagan.
Because:
If the ultimate authority is moral, it will condemn the hierarchy. → So the authority must be amoral. → Pagan.
If the ultimate authority is universal, it will equalize all magical beings. → So the authority must be partisan. → Pagan.
If the ultimate authority is transcendent, it will stand outside the system and judge it. → So the authority must be immanent. → Pagan.
If the ultimate authority is gracious, it will forgive the oath-breaker and liberate the bound. → So the authority must be transactional. → Pagan.
If the ultimate authority is ethical, it will favor faith over blood. → So the authority must be genealogical. → Pagan.
If the ultimate authority is personal, it will relate to each individual soul, and the least vassal will be as visible as the greatest lord. → So the authority must be impersonal, a force rather than a person. → Pagan.
Every axis of the Christian God points against the system. Every axis of the pagan gods points toward it. The writer who wants the system must choose the pagan model, whether they know it or not.

Тощий Бетон_вторая итерация

И опять хорошо сказано. Надо будет поразмыслить над этим, пригодится для той же заявки про родомагию

Если брать абстрактно, то имеем кучу мелких псевдобожков / духов места - в манорах, намоленные идолы / алтари, впитавшаяся кровь и магия жертв и они сильнее в том месте, которое охраняют (условный магический источник). Вот и сидят маги по своим норам - манорам, никакого единого пантеона у них нет